Changing God's Tune? is the title of a response written by Rick Popejoy, Brant Stubblefield and Gil Yoder which will appear in tomorrow's religious edition in the Daily Oklahoman. Brother Jim Nash, preacher for the Lord's church in Marietta, Oklahoma provided his expertise in designing the layout of the article. Th entire staff of Reflections wishes to say, "Thank you" to each and every individual and congregation that sent immediate funds to assist in this worthwhile endeavor. Although some can't understand why actions like this are necessary, it remains imperative that such things are done as commanded in Scripture (Rom. 16:17). Hopefully, this article will serve as a teaching tool to the public as to why mechanical instruments in worship are sinful (1 Pet 4:11, Eph 5:19, Col 3:16-17). May this article also seek to rally those within the church to realize that there are still many of "us" that cling prayerfully to the old paths (Jer 6:16). Lastly, since Mr. Henderson made public these fatal false views that are "salvation issues" (inserting innovations into the worship) we regretfully mark him as a teacher of false doctrine. Let us all be in prayer that his return to the "apostles' doctrine" (Acts 2:42) might be soon. Again, we cannot thank our supporters enough. You are truly our "fellowhelpers" (3 John 9) and the "unsung heroes" of the day. Brethren, we must always teach, promote and defend the Christ and His one true church!
Rick and Brant
Wednesday, February 06, 2008
Changing God's Tune?
524 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 524 Newer› Newest»There are REAL needs that the body of Christ should be focused on. Don't you think that reaching a lost and dying world is more important than this. Don't you think that the same ad money you invest in bashing a church could have been used to reach out to the hopeless with a message of hope? Can you justify your actions here when put into perspective of the mission and purpose of a Church? I appreciate your passion, but I can't see Paul taking an add out in the Roman News to publicly critic a Church Body. I don't see anywhere in the scripture where that would be a course of action. And if you think it is, you had better start saving money to take out ads for all the other churches who are 'doing it wrong'. Maybe next year you can get an ad in the Super Bowl. I'm sure that would make Jesus smile.
Adam
Edmond, OK
Adam, what do you suppose we should be focused on? Running three hundred members off because we want to go beyond the doctrine of Christ? How about holding hands with the neighboring baptist church? No, lets go support a Billy Graham campaign for satan! Are we not to earnestly contend for the faith (Jude 3). If Quail Springs had not put their religious garbage in the Daily Oklahoman it would not have had to been responded to in the Daily Oklahoman.
Adam-
I used to think just like you. As a former Quail Spring member I had no concept of Bible authority. Most of the sermons are on practical everyday living but little to no preaching on the one church or the doctrine of Christ.
Do you know that Reflections (so I have been told) has had over 13 campaigns in the last two years. Over 140 baptisms.
The money to build over the top church buildings is ok, but they can't spend 11600 to stand up for Jesus? I suppose you are against this country spending money on the war as well? Paul did take an ad out in a newspaper. Read the book of Acts and the epistle of Romans. We still read of Alexander the coppersmith.
The article was primarily a teaching tool on why we really don't use instruments in worship.
If Mark had not messed up everything with his false doctrine in the PUBLIC newspaper maybe these guys wouldn't have mentioned him in such a manner. I plan on sending some money to Reflections. God's providence is working through these men to cause people to rise up.
Daniel
Edmond, OK
I guess that some would even blast Paul for speaking in a public manner as he so often did (For instance Acts 17). I think that it is great that someone in Oklahoma finally had that guts to stand up to the war that has been brought to us. Remember, we didnt add the instrument, Quail Springs did. They are the religious terrorists that flew their plane of false doctrine into one of the Lords buildings. But I guess we should just sit back and "love" them for it.
Good content on the article. Text was difficult to read, in some areas it blurred.
I appreciate the fact the reply was geraed more towards teaching than marking. BUT marking is commanded and required. Romans 16:17
Adam
said
I can't see....
I don't see...
Why don't you ask, "What Saith the Scriptures"?
Super Bowl won't be necessary unless Quail advertises their perverted doctrine on the Super Bowl. If they do I hope Rick nad Brant follow with the truth. So call Mark and see..(the ball is in his corner).
Tom
If Quail repents and removes the instrument would Reflections take out an ad and speak of them in a positive way?
Adam,
Do you believe that reaching a lost and dying world often times warning a lost and dying world (Ex. 3:17ff)? It is clear that the interest of Quail Springs was and is to please the community, rather than the Creator. Sadly, the actions of Quail Springs, while appealing to man, are without question appalling to God. The brethren at Lindsay are to be commended for exposing the error of Quail Springs, rather than remaining silent at such error.
While Paul may not have taken out an "add (sic) in the Roman News to publicly critic (sic) a Church body," the Bible is clear that Paul would have publicly marked them (Rom. 16:17).
Finally, your post is rather hypocritical. You begin by stating that "There are REAL needs that the body of Christ should be focused on," and then you proceed to bash the brethren for exposing the error of Quail Springs. Where is your focus? While I agree that we need to focus on saving a lost and dying world, we must focus on saving those who have erred from the truth (James 5:19-20). Often times to do such requires that we expose the error of places such as Quail Springs. It seems clear that at least 300 members recognize the error. Our prayer to God is that they will return to the truth, and find a faithful congregation of God's people with whom they can worship.
Jamie
Marlow, OK
If they repent then we would be the ones sinning if we were not to truly forgive them. I think that Quail Springs needs to Publicly repent the same way the Publicly showed thier sin. When someone comes forward and admits sin and repents does the person sinned against have to come forward and let everyone know that they forgive them? I am not Rick and Brant so i cant speak for them, but i do believe that it would be great if QS repented and put it in the paper and that they did a joint ad with reflections showing that we are indeed in fellowship. What a joyous day that would be if they would repent!!!
It is interesting that those who expose error are regarded as being negative. Yet, is not the one that suggests the Quail repent and remove the instrument just as "negative"? If exposing error is considered negative then should we embrace error just for the sake of being considered "postive"? Sadly, many are more concerned about being regarded as "postive" in the eyes of men, than being pleasing to God (Gal. 1:10).
A further issue necessary for consideration is that of repentance. Just removing the instrument does not mean that Quail has repented. Certainly, what would be called into question is whether the removal of the instrument was the result of godly sorrow, or the result of losing members (2 Cor. 7:10).
Jamie
Such arrogance, such religious pious....$24,000-plus on an ad about instrumental music?? Really? I'm embarassed and appalled. If the Church of Christ would look outside it's 4 walls, and the name on the building, and recognize the sheer need of God's LOVE for those that are hurting and desperate?
Do you honestly think you reached anyone outside the BODY of Christ??? Sure you support missionaries....that's fine. What about the single mom who has no idea how she's going to feed her kids or keep her home for that matter? Or the dad who just lost his job...or the person with an addiction and no hope whatsoever.....ya think that $24,000 was put to good use for them??
Not ONE place in your ad did you use the word Love....and if I recall correctly....Jesus said THE Single greatest commandment, above ALL others, was Love the Lord Your God with ALL your heart....and Love your neighbor. Mark 12:28-31 - There is NO commandment greater than These. Love God, Love your neighbor. Wow, that certainly didn't resonate from your big pompous ad. Shame on you.
To comment on Daniel's post - that the ad was a teaching tool about the non-use of instruments in worship - no it wasn't. It was an arrogant display of "I'm right/You're wrong" and a public stoning of Mark Henderson. Jesus usually passed on the public stonings.
Comment to Jaime's post: You said: "Our prayer to God is that they will return to the truth, and find a faithful congregation of God's people with whom they can worship." You mean to say, and find a church of Christ...right? Since the name on the building is the important part and that's the only place one can find God's people.
As a former member of the c of c, I now realize I have completely lost my salvation because I worship God with instrumental music. Since you are so much better than me, and are obviously on the fast track to heaven, please pray for me.
If Quail repents and removes the instrument would Reflections take out an ad and speak of them in a positive way?
Rick here: Yes.
Q: Is Quail Springs interested? We can begin conservation immediately.
Maybe Quail Springs who started this mess would be interested in taking out an ad saying that the instrument is sinful.
Ellebelle-
The ad didn't cost 24k plus.
Jesus and Paul both exposed error publicly.
You are mistakingly placing the concept of obedience against love instead harmonizing the two.
Why would you waste your breath on us mean spirited heathens? Do you realize this blog is for public viewing? You did the exact thing you condemned us for.
Typical liberal.
"$24,000-plus on an ad about instrumental music??"
Where did you come up with that number? Did you make it so high so you could be dramatic? The actual cost is much less than half of that, and has been posted on the site more than once. You are making the same mistake others have made and assume that physical needs are more important than spiritual ones.
Jeff Martin said "You are making the same mistake others have made and assume that physical needs are more important than spiritual ones."
From personal experience, there are times when it is more important to help people with physical needs because in turn that opens the door to helping with their spiritual needs.
I understand that our spiritual life is most important because it is how we get to heaven (Colossians 3:1-2), but the Bible clearly teaches we cannot neglect physical needs (I Timothy 5:8).
I currently worship at Quail Springs Church of Christ and am happy to say that My wife and I are going to place membership there this weekend. The instruments had nothing to do with our decision, however, they help to lead me into an extremely intimate time of worship each and every sunday. The real reason that we are joining quail springs is because of their focus. They focus on Loving God, Sharing God, Teaching Others, and Serving Others. NOT wasting valuable time and money condemning others and claiming others are false teachers. When people such as yourselves start to do that. You are trying to play God. Are you all so arrogant that you put yourselves on the same level of God? I hope not. But the ad was just that. Three men attempting to play God.
The scriptures were extremely misused in the article. (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16). How come I can't sing and make melody in my heart with instruments? I think I can. I do every Sunday. (John 4:24) makes absolutely no reference to instruments or how specifically we are to worship. It only says that we should worship in spirit and truth. Again, I do that every Sunday.
Here is my question. If in the Old Testament, instruments please God. And there are several places where they are used. I don't understand how that falls under the old law. Instruments were not a part of the old law. If instrumental worship pleased God in the OT, what makes anyone think that Jesus' arrival changes that? That is absurd. The new law did not make instrumental worship sinful. That is misuse of the scriptures. The new law led to a new salvation through Jesus Christ. THIS ABSOLUTELY IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE. My best friend was a baptist and was absolutely the best person I have ever known. He loved God, worshipped God (with instruments), served others, was a far better person than 99.9% of the people I know. He knew the Bible and he followed all of it's commands. He was baptized and everything. If you are really going to sit there and tell me that he is not in heaven because he worshipped with instruments, then we are all in trouble. Because he was 10 times the person than any of you could probably ever strive to be.
Reply to "placing membership at QS":
Quote (you said) "My best friend was a baptist and was absolutely the best person I have ever known. He loved God, worshipped God (with instruments), served others, was a far better person than 99.9% of the people I know. He knew the Bible and he followed all of it's commands. He was baptized and everything. If you are really going to sit there and tell me that he is not in heaven because he worshipped with instruments, then we are all in trouble. Because he was 10 times the person than any of you could probably ever strive to be."
"He was 10 times the person than you could probably ever strive to be." Your comments are some of the most hypocritical comments that i have ever heard. Do you know Rick and Brant? Plus what does your "Baptist" friend have to do with wether or not instruments in worship are wrong? I have a friend who is an atheist but yet is a great person and does many great things, so i reckon i couldnt use scripture to show him the error of his ways. You say your going to QS because of their focus!!! They are pleasing thier own bellies by worshiping the way they want to rather than the way God wants them to. The reason that you cant make a melody in your heart to the Lord with an instrument is that it is not true praise. The Bible describes true praise as "the fruit of our lips" (Hebrews 13:15). And your Baptist friend may be a good person but being good doesnt save a person. Following what Jesus says does (John 12:48). What church was your friend added to when he was baptized(Acts 2:47)? Did he get baptized knowing about the true kingdom and Jesus (Acts 8:12)? Why isnt your friend just a Christian (Acts 11:26) rather than being named for something that Baptists dont even believe is essential. And was your friend saved before or after baptism?
And John 4:24 describes the how of worship: in spirit (attitude and heart as compared to the Old Testament the outward doing of acts) and truth (according to Gods word [John 17:17]). Truth is not up to us to decide upon. It is already decided upon by God and thus it is not up to us to choose but rather do. If the first century Christians were to use their talents to play instruments to worship God dont you think that would have been mentioned in scripture? The scripture never says that God gave some to be musicians! If you want to worship according to truth then you need to make a melody from your heart and not from a guitar.
Unless you got a discount from the Daily Oklahoman, the ad that you ran cost $24k. I called this morning to check. Maybe you did get a discount....that's awesome. Ok, so $12k. Still ridiculous.
Yes, I do realize this blog is public viewing. But it didn't cost me any money to write it.
I may not be as conservative as you "Anonymous" but I'm not a liberal. Have a great day!!
ellebelle,
Would it have been ok with you if it only cost a dollar? If not where is the limit on which you can spend to place and ad in the newpaper? (Please provide book chapter and verse)
By the way it did cost you somehow to get on this blog because the internet is not free!
One other thing.....a Psalm is a song sung to a harp. I'm sure you have an answer for that one....
"they help to lead me into an extremely intimate time of worship each and every sunday."
You don't have a clue about intimate worship this is nothing but emotionalism. How do I know? For a period of time, I spoke in tounges and healed the sick. Using instrumental music to make you "feel more spiritual" the Assembly of God church would get you so "emotional/intimate" with God people would be balling and wailing and offering up all sorts of vain worship. I honestly was so caught up in the emotionalism, I truly believed that what I was doing was right. Truth be told looking back I was coached on how to speak in tounges almost hypmatized by the Instrumental music and even falling out "slain in the spirit". I believed this was the way to be, that the more emotianal I could be the better, but that wasn't the case.
We do and should show emotion towards our God for what he has done for us. But when we start letting it get to the point where we will add thing to God's worship to make us "feel more spiritual".
I am proud to say I escaped the trap of emotionalism and denominationalism. Churches with instrumental worship are not worshiping in spirit and truth but "Spirit and Lie"
"If instrumental worship pleased God in the OT, what makes anyone think that Jesus' arrival changes that? That is absurd. The new law did not make instrumental worship sinful"
The Jews were using instrumental music in their worship. When they became Christians they no longer used them. They had them available. Why didn't they use them in the worship of the church?
The answer is because God didn't Guide them to use instruments in worship...
It was over 600 years before the catholics started using them and that caused a split....
Let me try that paragraph again!
We do and should show emotion towards our God,for what he has done for us. But when we start letting it get to the point where we will add things to God's worship to make us "feel more spiritual" we sin....
It is interesting that many of those who choose to be anonymous, are those who are instrumental music.
With regard to ellebelle's post, our is not for them to find a church of Christ, rather for them to find the church of Christ. The church that is not ashamed to wear His name. The church over which He is the Head (Eph. 1:19-22; Col. 1:18), and His authority is respected.
Since when does providing physical needs authorize the rejection of Scriptural authority (Col. 3:17; 1 Peter 4:11). To suggest that those who supported the publication of the article are neglecting the physical needs of individuals is a grave accusation. Further, it is hypocritical. How much money is Quail Springs spending for the purchase, playing, and unkeep of the instruments? Should they not be using such to provide food, clothing and shelter for those in need? Clearly, the interest of Quail Springs is not to provide for the needs of individuals; rather it is to provide for the wants of individuals. In doing such the greatest need--spiritual needs--is being neglected.
I'm not affliated with the Church of Christ, so let me see how this works.
If I were to join, when and how often would the church take out a full page, color, emolden advertisment with my photo and a list my sins in the Daily Oklahoman? - Scarlett
Concerning the cost of the article, how much did it cost Quail Springs for the publication of article written by Ms. Carla Hinton? We would be delighted for Ms. Hinton to do an article concerning the other side of the issue. Perhaps, she like to interview brother Mac Lyon concerning the truth about instrumental music. It would seem to be fair for the truth to be represented, rather than for the Oklahoman to seem to be supportive of the action at Quail Springs.
NEWS ALERT:
The same ad will appear on January 14th in the Bethany Tribune according to Larry, the sales and advertsing manager.
This will be a full page color ad as well.
Scarlett,
First, being a member of the church of Christ is not a matter of joining, but rather a matter of being added by the Lord to His church (Acts 2:41-47). I commend you on recognizing that the actions of Quail Springs were sinful. The reason for the public response was because the actions of Quail Springs were not the actions of just one individual, but rather the actions of Quail Springs. Recognizing such, 300 members left Quail Springs.
Ellebelle-
If I as an individual have an overflowing amount of money why does it bother you for me (and others) to give it away to Reflections so that men who are more capable than I can express our Biblical convictions in such a way?
Normally the ad is much more than Reflections paid. Again, you don't know the ability of Rick and Brant to bargain hunt!
Cash payment never hurts either.
I heard the Edmond Sun want to run the ad. Is this true?
Sam
OKC, OK
Our Quail Springs brothers and sisters have clearly moved away from sound biblical and historical teachings concerning worship. Their change is unwarranted and regretted.
I am disappointed in Reflections response to Quail Springs. By "marking" Quail Springs, and particularly Mark Henderson at this point, you are implying that you accepted him in the past and were in full fellowship with Quail Springs before this decision. What fellowship did you share with the church at Quail Springs and what has ultimately changed as a result of their new practice? I do not dispute the error of instrumental music. What I do question is the reason Reflections and many other now see the need to mark them by means of a public and secular publication. If you have already "marked them" as Paul says to do in Romans 16:17, why do you not continue with the rest of Paul's words and "avoid them". By continuing to use the Lord's time and money to carry on a fight with the brothers and sisters at Quail Springs, you are allowing them to distract from the greater task of sharing the gospel to those eager to listen. That is precisely what Satan is about. Sarcastic and child-like articles such as the one posted by the reflections staff do nothing but tarnish the influence of the church. Quail Springs and many other left-leaning brethren have ignored your positions and genuine concerns because of such un-Christian attitudes that stand in the way of the message of Christ. While the article was certainly cute, dramatic, and creative, it displayed the immature love of the fight over the genuine love of the souls caught in this error. I pray for both your repentance and that of Quail Springs. "To him be glory in the church for ever and ever amen".
The above post would rebuke Jesus for his "cute" language against religious fornicators. Moderates as described above are the very ones that kill the church.
Sir, what have you done to mark Quail Springs? Jesus had already "marked" Ephesus before Rev 2:5, but he publicized it and circulated it after the fact.
What moderate church has ever marked a false teacher?
We (our congreagtion) sent immediate funds for the article. We have more ready if needed.
Does the ad run in Texas, as well,
I saw it mentioned in this ad -
Several newspapers are contacting the Reflections staff about running it elsewhere. Brotherhood papers will carry it to. The Gospel Advocate is considering it.
"If I as an individual have an overflowing amount of money why does it bother you for me (and others) to give it away to Reflections so that men who are more capable than I can express our Biblical convictions in such a way?"
It bothers me because the ad itself served no good purpose to anyone. It did not change Mark's mind, it did not reach any lost soul, it did not help someone in need (spiritual or physical).....It's akin to screaming hell and damnation on a street corner. Just doesn't reach most people.
Read the book "Un-Christian"....and you'll see what the world thinks about this sort of thing.
Ellebelle-
We already have studies set up from this ad. There will be converts from liberalism to truthism!
Were not trying to please liberals like you. We are trying to repair the damage by false teacher Henderson. We are looking for the good and honest hearts.
Staff Member
Mark helped us conservatives sooooooo much! He drove away with a bull whip and selfishness 300 plus souls because he WANTED the instrument so bad.
Mark's destructiveness has assisted the cause.
Second and Adams
Elk City, OK
I vote Rick, Brant, and Wiggins start a Live call in show in OKC to rufute error and preach the truth. I know this has been effective in other areas such as Martinsville, VA. Many are taught out of their man made religions. There was even an entire Methodist church that obeyed the truth and became Christians.
ellebelle,
Out of concern for your soul, could you please tell why you support the use of instrumental music? Perhaps you would like to have a Bible study?
cd,
Good ideal.
So, I'm still learning. If I use instrumental music in worship, does that make me not a Christian?
Scarlett
And, my second question is, if God added me, then what negates it?
Or, do I just live "in sin"
Scarlett,
You have a great question. First, let us consider how one becomes a Christian. Is one a Christian, who chooses to do what they want, or what God commands? The Bible is clear as to how one becomes a Christian. Sadly, many argue that God has not be explicit about how one becomes a Christian, when in fact He has. Perhaps you would like to study how one becomes a Christian, as well as what God demands of those who are Christians? God expects His authority to be respected by the non-Christian as well as the Christian.
Scarlett,
I appreciate your inquirey about instrumental worship and its relationship to salvation. First of all one needs to understand the nature of salvation. Jesus came to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10). But saved from what? Their sins (Romans 6:23). So then what does the Bible say one must do to be saved? Well, it says very explicitly in black and white what we must do. We have to have faith which comes by hearing (Romans 10:17). Then that faith should drive us to obedience. Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15). What then are those commandments? In Luke 13:3 Jesus says that if we dont repent of our sins that we will perish. He also said that "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16)". We see from Peter in Act 2:38 that after baptism we have the remission of sins and are added to the Lords church (Acts 2:47). But before one is to be baptized they need to understand about Jesus and the Kingdom (the church Matthew 16:18-20) according to Acts 8:12. Part of understanding about the church is understanding how that church is to worship. Worship is to be done in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). The truth part there means according to the word of the Lord (John 17:17). We are to have authority (written) according to Col. 3:16-17. We are given authority to sing in Ephesians 5:19. We are not given authority to use the instrument. Therefore if you are baptized or "saved" and are added to a church that uses instruments you are not added to the kingdom of Christ (the church of Christ) and thus one is not saved.
Rev. 15:1-3 the writer mentions that he saw beings who were holding "harps given to them by God" and they were singing a praise to God. There is a new testament example of an instrument being used in accordance to singing praise. Also, the Hebrew definition of a Psalm is a song sung to a harp. That being the case, Ephesians 5:19 tells us to speak to yourselves in psalms (songs sung to an instrument). That is the NT, the New Law. So we have thrown that entire argument out of the window. In my 23 years of studying the bible, it appears that if anyone is to truly be afraid of how they worship, it is those who do not use instruments. Especially now that we have seen them in the New Testament. It appears that Brant and Rick should be marked as opposed to Mark Henderson. God Bless Mark Henderson. A truthful prophet in the name of the Lord.
Jamie,
But I'm asking, does he add me to his church first or do I need to be obedient first, then he adds me?
Scarlett,
I appreciate the sincerity of your question. The Lord adds those who are obedient to His word to His church (Acts 2:41-47). One cannot be saved who refuses to be obedient to the Word of God. In fact, Paul declares that the Lord is going to take vengence upon them that "know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ" (2 Thess. 1:8-10).
"Do you know Rick and Brant?"
No, I do not know Rick or Brant. But obviously they like to play God which is like playing with fire. In the same response you do not know me or my friend. He was baptized into the Christ Church. The one that has no name over the door. He knew why he was being baptized and did so for all of the same reason you were baptized. Also, please do not tell me that I do not know what intimate worship is. Maybe you are the one who truly does not know what intimate worship is.
This day is a sad sad day for the church of christ. I was raised in the church of christ and am ashamed to say that to anyone I know. Never again will I support a group with that title over their door because it probably should read, "Church of those who will waste their money and time not to seek and save the lost, but to go out of our ways to destroy those we disagree with." What a sad group the Church of Christ is. At least those who are responsible for this article.
Anonymous,
If the term Psalm in Ephesians 5:19 requires the use of the harp, then please tell us who is to play the harp. Contextually, all are to do so. Thus, your conclusion would suggest that the members of the early church all sinned in that they did not use instrumental music. You seem to be arguing from Ephesian 5:19 that instrumental music is a matter of option, when in fact the command is obligatory. Further, the definition to which you appeal is from the classical Greek rather than the Koine in which the New Testament was written.
Gage, I got it. Thank you for the clear explaination and verses. I'm going to look up the commandments tonight. Thanks - Scarlett
Anonymous,
Was the apostle Paul playing God when he condemned those at Corinth for being pufed up (1 Cor. 5:1-11)? Was the apostle Paul playing God when he declared "mark them that cause division" (Rom. 16:17)? Was the apostle Paul playing God when he declared, "Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness" (Eph. 5:11)? It seems that you are guilty of doing what you accuse Brant and Rick of doing. For in condemning them are you not "playing God" as you have accused them of doing (Matt. 7:1-5; Romans 2).
If they can, then why can't I.
Jamie, I appreciate your concern for my soul - I can sense your sincerity.
I grew up in the c of c - one right here in the oklahoma city area. Born and raised believing that if you sang a "church" song with instruments, you were doomed to hell. After many, many years of study and prayer, I realized that my God did not send his son to experience this earth and such a horrible death so that I had to be shackled by legalistic rituals and traditions. He came so that we could have LIFE. I realized that I wanted to shout praise, raise my hands to Him, and show emotion (not talking tongues, or snakes or anything like that so don't attack me) and that was just not accepted within those 4 walls. (we are also told to lift up holy hands in prayer, but I don't know many c of c's who do that either). Worship had become strict and contained and I could not do that any longer. Again, through much prayer and study my family decided to go to a different building to worship God. Same God, mind you, not a different God. I love God more than you will ever understand, and strive to do his will every day. It is not for you to judge me and my relationship with my Father. And I have a relationship now....not just a religion. I know you and others think I'm going to hell because I don't go to the C of C and that's ok...really, I don't care. I'm secure in my salvation, I know God is a BIG God, he doesn't fit in some box, taped up all pretty with a bow on top. He's so big, I think he can handle someone singing to him with a guitar in the background. I know he can hear me.
Anyway, Jamie, thank you again. I know this does not help in your quest to save me, but I will just have to live with that and hope God has more mercy than most of you guys do.
What makes Brant and Rick better than me?
And Jamie, As you your question as to who is to play the harp, how about those who are skilled in it. 1 Peter 4:10 tells us to each use whatever gifts we have been given to serve others and administer God's grace in various forms. So lets allow those who play the harp (or any instrument) to do that in praise to God. And yes, I do believe that instrumental worship is an option. You are right. Please show me verse and scripture where instruments are condemned to there is command not to use them. We already pointed out that Ephesians 5:19 won't work because it calls for Psalms which are in accompaniment of a harp. I gaurantee you that the verses of the Bible in which instruments are used greatly outnumber those in which you try to use out of context to say that they are not to be used. I found 58 that use the word harp another 15 or so that use the words musical instruments. Also, please read 2 Chronicles 5:12-14 and tell me why again singing and instruments can't take place at the same time. The Lord loved it then. The whole temple was filled with his presence.
ellebelle,
I appreciate your sincerity. It is sad when worship does become merely legalistic and ritualistic. However, let us not confuse obeying God's as being legalistic. Did Jesus suffer and die so that we could do as we choose (Rom. 6:1)? God does have mercy and shows such in His Word. However, to be the receipents of His mercy we must be obedient to His Will. Is not exposing error and proclaiming truth an act of mercy?
Gage,
I have one more question. I remember meeting Mr. Green, one time, and he spoke how about how he was purchasing buildings for Church of Christ. But at the time, he attended a church with instruments.
So, and I don't mean to be sarcastic, but do you receive donations from those you consider "unsaved"? Scarlett
Anonymous,
You indicate your lack of understanding by seeking OT authority for New Testament worship. While you argue for the use of instrumental music, we have yet to hear you argue for the use of sacrificing animals.
Jamie, I agree with you completely about continuing to sin so that we may receive God's grace. Not a question there. However, we will never agree that singing with an instrument is a "sin." Homosexuality, lying, cheating, stealing, gossip, slander, adultry...those are sinful. I believe that if it was a salvation issue, if it was a key to getting to heaven, God would have made it specific. I know you (the article supporters) believe that God doesn't have to tell us everything, but I really have to disagree. The Bible is so important, it is God speaking to us. It is our only true instruction. He wants all children to spend eternity with Him. I can't believe that he would leave something that important out.....
I've been having these conversations with family members for years. This is nothing new to me.
"We already pointed out that Ephesians 5:19 won't work because it calls for Psalms which are in accompaniment of a harp"
Don't you get it? If that's the case, then everyone has to play it, and it has to be a harp - Ephesians 5:19 applies to everyone, so everyone has to follow it. A church that worshipped without a harp would be sinning.
ellebelle,
I would agree that the Bible is important. Did God have to tell Noah what wood he could not use, or by telling him what to do God excluded all other things? In like manner, when God commands us to sing, He excludes all other forms of music (i.e. humming, instrumental music, clapping, etc.) Could you imagine the size of the Bible if God had to tell us what He did not command? See Leviticus 10:1-2.
Rick and/or Brant,
Would you please post a list of the churches who financially assisted with the ad.
Richard May
Gage, Oh, my mistake, Mr. Green purchases buildings for Assemblies of God.
So now I can't even hum. Wow.
What do you think about listening to a christian radio station? Or would my day be better off listening to secular music?
Jamie, I hope that they Bible you use is a New Testament Bible only. Anytime you ever read from the OT you must be sinning. So throw it out of your Bible it is useless. When have you ever heard that? You are showing your lack of understanding for the Old Law v. New Law by saying silly things as you did in a previous post. I don't bring up sacrrifice of animals because Hebrews 10:4 deals with that specifically. In the Old Law, Sacrifice was the way for salvation and the forgiveness of sins. Instruments had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OLD LAW. When you refer to the New Law and Old Law you are referring to the ways to salvation. Then, you had to do sacrifices. People praised God through song, instruments, dancing, raising hands all of that. Did the Old Law instruct them to. NO. Did doing those things save them. NO. Sacrifice of animals did. Now under the new law it is here (gal. 3) because the old law could not impart complete life. Jesus' sacrifice had to be made. That is why Heb. 10:4 deals specifically with Sacrifice because it was a salvation issue. THIS IS NOT. If it was a salvation issue, How come Jesus spent absolutely NO time speaking specifically to this matter? If it was a part of the new law that worship could no longer have instruments, Why is that no where to be found in the NT. INSTRUMENTS ARE FOUND IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.
Jeff I agree. In my studies it does seem that a church who does not use instruments in worship is a sin. Good point Jeff. Thank you for pointing that out. I do think we all should be instruments because of Eph. 5:19.
I don't know exactly how much benevolence work QS does, but I do know that they put a cap on how much they are willing to financially help people.
I know of a sister in Christ who apparently reached this cap, and even though she is a member there they would help her no more. She sought a got help from another congregation.
The cap is less than the $11.6K for the ad. She was once a Baptist and is now wondering why she ever changed, there is so little difference now.
ellebelle,
The instrumental music question relates to its use in worship (to the Lord, Eph. 5:19). God has not authorized humming or instrumental music in worship. He has authorized singing.
You didn't answer my question. Can I only worship in a c of c building on Sunday, at 10:00 a.m.?
Can I worship in my car driving to work and not sin??
Can I listen to christian radio and not sin???
Anonymous,
Why did the early Christians not use instrumental music in worship? They clearly had the money to pay for it? If they had the authority to use them, then why did they not use them? They were well acquainted with the use of instrumental music in the Old Testament, but yet, in New Testament worship instrumental music was not used.
ellebelle,
To answer your question God has been very specific as to worship (John 4:24). As to the location of worship, it is permissible that we can worship individually, when congregationally is not possible. However, whether individually or congregationally, for worship to be acceptable to GOD is must be according to God's will not our wants. Thus, one can worship while driving to work in their car, so long as that which they do is in spirit and in truth.
As far as listening to Christian radio, certainly such is permissible.
anonymous,
If the instruments of music had nothing to do with the OLD LAW, then what is concluded is that God permitted them, not authorized them. It is possible for some things to be permitted but not authorized, such as in the case multiple wives in the Old Testament. Yet, let us not assume that if God permits something that must mean that He is authorizing its use.
Jamie, You are actually wrong. Instruments were used in New Testament worship (1 cor. 14:6-8). In this letter to the Corinthians order is trying to be restored to the assembly. In verse 7 Paul says "7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?" So, they obviously were being used. The instruction here is not that they should not be used, but rather if they are going to be used they need to be played to the tune where notes can be distinguished. It sounds like they were being used, but whoever it was that was playing them were not doing a good job. Notice, there is no mention of getting rid of them or not using them. Just that if they are going to be used, they should be played to the tune of the song.
Anonymous,
The use of the trumpet in 1 Cor. 14 is not an indication of its use in worship, but rather it use in the preparation for battle. Paul is drawing the comparison between the trumpet giving an uncertain sound, and the use of tongues not understood. In either case they lead to chaos and confusion, of which God is not the author (v. 33).
Jamie, Go back and read 2 Chronicles 5:12-14. Sounds to me like God Authorized instrumental worship. He absolutely loves anyone using their talents to worship and praise him. Also, to your response about the radio. You totally are contradicting yourself. If we can worship in the car individually and sing along to the songs on the radio, how is that not worship? you say that is fine but not instruments. Your argument is very confusing and contradictory of itself. You use of scripture is off base. I have been in this debate with many people of the years and those who argue against instrumental music really pull verses out of context to make them say what they want. That is where we all get into trouble when we start to read what we want to read out of the bible.
Again Jamie. Read 1 Corinthians 14 in its entire context. The use of the flute and the harp are being used in the sense of worship the same way as speaking in tongues. The trumpet and battle depiction are a metaphor for worship. He is not saying speaking in tongues or instruments are bad or wrong or that they "cause chaos". In this case, yes they are causing chaos. In all cases, no they do not cause chaos. He never says they cause chaos. He says the way these people are using them cause chaos. Again, read the context.
Anonymous,
There were many things God authorized in the Old Testament that are not authorized in the New.
Anonymous,
Paul is not arguing for the usuage of these instruments, rather he is stating that one who babbles in a forieng language, in a worship assembly, is like one who plays a musical instrument without making a distinction in the sounds (Morris 192).
See also 1 Cor. 14:15.
Your focus should be on those who don't know Jesus, instead of being concerned with those that know him, but choose to worship in a different manner than you do. I had to quit reading all this crap. It is sickening the vile hatred that Brant, Gil & Rick and all who agree with them are spewing on this issue. You need to stop!
Scarlet,
I have appreciated our conversation and i would like to continue it in a more personal setting. If you would like to then please email me at gage@thecoldwaters.com.
In the Lord,
Gage
If they hated you they would keep their mouth shut. You are unaware of the souls coming to know the Lord because someone has finally stood up for the truth.
Dagwood,
I used to be a member where you preach. I have good friends there that I care about. It is sad the liberal condition the church has fallen into there. Please get with these men for a study on biblical authority.
Our Quail Springs brothers and sisters have clearly moved away from sound biblical and historical teachings concerning worship. Their change is unwarranted and regretted.
I am disappointed in Reflections response to Quail Springs. By "marking" Quail Springs, and particularly Mark Henderson at this point, you are implying that you accepted him in the past and were in full fellowship with Quail Springs before this decision. What fellowship did you share with the church at Quail Springs and what has ultimately changed as a result of their new practice? I do not dispute the error of instrumental music. What I do question is the reason Reflections and many other now see the need to mark them by means of a public and secular publication. If you have already "marked them" as Paul says to do in Romans 16:17, why do you not continue with the rest of Paul's words and "avoid them". By continuing to use the Lord's time and money to carry on a fight with the brothers and sisters at Quail Springs, you are allowing them to distract from the greater task of sharing the gospel to those eager to listen. That is precisely what Satan is about. Sarcastic and child-like articles such as the one posted by the reflections staff do nothing but tarnish the influence of the church. Quail Springs and many other left-leaning brethren have ignored your positions and genuine concerns because of such un-Christian attitudes that stand in the way of the message of Christ. While the article was certainly cute, dramatic, and creative, it displayed the immature love of the fight over the genuine love of the souls caught in this error. I pray for both your repentance and that of Quail Springs. "To him be glory in the church for ever and ever amen".
Ellebelle,
It is precisely the love for God, His word, and souls that compels us to speak the truth.
If we did not love souls we would not speak what God has said in His word.
Baptists are not lost...
merely because they use instrumental music (except the primitive variety); nor because of their pastoral system; nor because they are often premillenial; nor because they don't believe they can lose their salvation (except for the free will variety); nor because they are Calvinists..
They are lost because if they obey baptist teaching on how to be saved they are not actually saved. They are still outside of Christ in whom alone is salvation.
you guys are running people away from the church with you hate message. how fast is your little church growing with all this hate built up for people you have no fellowship with? God is not smiling because of what you are doing he is Crying for the pain you are causeing
Anonymous wrote:
Instruments were used in New Testament worship (1 cor. 14:6-8). In this letter to the Corinthians order is trying to be restored to the assembly. In verse 7 Paul says "7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?" So, they obviously were being used.
LOL, LOL, LOL...
I'm sorry, but that one is funny. Even Mark Henderson acknowledged in his interview that the NT is silent about the use of musical instruments in Christian worship.
I have never read a single scholar of the Bible who worships with instruments has ever tried to use that verse to justify it.
Wow!! What a stretch.
"you guys are running people away from the church with you hate message."
Would you please tell us exactly what is hateful about saying that what Quail is doing is wrong? If I tell a child it is wrong to steal, does it mean I hate the child?
good job, Adam. Ditto
I'm just astonished that there are so many nuts out there. Do you really represent the Church of Christ denomination? The topic is silly and inconsequential to start with and definitely distracting from the Great Commission. God is pleased with many styles of worship and he is able to judge which churches are worshiping in spirit and truth. I'm sure Satan has truly enjoyed your petty and embarrassing attacks on another church. You people need to get busy helping others, showing God's love, forgiveness and mercy.
an observer,
That is just as much a stretch as any of the verses the false teacher brant, rick, and gil used in their absurd advertisement today. If they can stretch verses, I guess we all can.
One other thing, Who gave Rick, Brant, and Gil the authority to "publicly announce" that Henderson is a false teacher and the authority to "mark" him? Since when has the church of christ ever done that? If Brant and Rick are the official markers of false teachers for the CoC could I get an updated list. I guess Rick Atchley would be on there. His CoC uses instruments. And why do these markers of false teachers not run ads against all baptist, catholics, life churches, lutherans, (you get the point). Shouldn't people be warned about them too. Why was Mark different? My family who attends a church of christ in Texas was embarrased when I told them what you had done. They wanted to know who gave these 3 men the right or authority to publicly denounce an entire congregation and a preacher. Are these 3 men like God or did God speak to them? what was it? Thanks to this article my entire family including myself and hundreds of thousands of other church of christ members are embarrased to admit where they go church. Thank you for ruining the name of the church of christ
Just to help me understand...
Are we referring only to corporate worship and praise? Jamie posted that listening to Christian music on the radio was acceptable, which seems at odds with this interpretation of scripture.
So is that okay because it is not part of a corporate worship service within a particular building. Or would you not consider that to be worship and praise.
Also, I never saw a response in regard to the origin of the word "pslam," which literally means to "play a stringed instrument."
This is another Westboro Baptist Church in the making.
Just how they give the Baptists a black eye, you give churches of Christ a black eye.
When are you going to start picketing?
The apostle Pual gave them the specific authority to do such. There is no official voice for the church other than the New Testament. Citing an upset church in Texas is not evidence. many churches in Texas helped to pay for the ad, so I was told. Texas has liberals too!
If your parents think that instruments are a matter of choice they are wrong too.
If you cite someone as a false teacher you are obligated to point out his specific doctrine he teaches that is fatal error and prove why it is wrong.
Mark proved his in the Paper.
What specific doctrine that causes souls to be lost does B, R, and G teach?
If they do so I will be the first to approach the situation. If they don't you are obligated to repent.If you don't we know you too, are just a "hateful" liberal hidinig behind a supposed wall of love.
Let the Bible teach you how to love. Love a man enough to "withstand him to his face before them ALL" Gal ch 2.
Tom
Tim,
To clarify, when one is listening to the radio that are not engaged in worship, unless they believe that all of life is worship, which is a whole different issue.
I am a widow lady that worships at the Edmond congregation. I support Mack Lyon's program in a substantial way. I am so proud of Reflections for calling Quail on the carpet. They are not a church of Christ. I am about to start sending money to Reflections. What is your mailing address?
I was also proud of Mack Lyon when he refused to participate in the Lectureship at OC. He told me himself that it seems they are headed in the same direction as Abilene.
I love you all.