Comments on Reflections: Sowing the Seed of the Kingdom

You might be a little off the mark with your comme...

2008-02-08T20:09:00.000-06:00

You might be a little off the mark with your comments hid way down here 4Him. Try one of the post above where the real discussion is going on.

The church of Christ will start growing again when...

2008-02-08T19:39:00.000-06:00

The church of Christ will start growing again when we get back to speaking the truth IN LOVE. Venomous tirades like the one from Brandt and Rick against the Quail Springs church only serve to confirm many outsiders' view of religion as being full of condemning zealots who would rather show how much they know than how much they care.

There is a much better way, a much more effective way to approach those who we believe to be in error. As a life long, devoted member of the CoC, I would immediately leave any congregation that would say such ugly, hateful things about any one, especially a group who is seeking to serve God but who interprets a point of doctrine differently than me.

The type of spiritual terrorism exhibited in the Q.S. indictment divides and drives away those who are seeking a better way. Being right on a topic does not empower one to be vile and nasty. I salute the passion but I'm grieved by the attitude.

Two questions about bankruptcy: (1) Anonymous wrot...

2008-01-29T10:03:00.000-06:00

Two questions about bankruptcy:
(1) Anonymous wrote... “I thought God's law was higher than mans law? I thought we had to "owe no man nothinig "?”
(2) Anonymous wrote... “What about the covenant or contract I entered into with Rick?”

Rick here... First, God’s law is higher than man’s law but you have not demonstrated a conflict in your inquiry, for herein the law relinquishes the debt. You must prove that the law has no right to relinquish the debt. Second, with every contract entered into in today’s world there is an underlying understanding that one party may file for bankruptcy and thus dissolve the debt. Therefore every contract presupposes the possibility of bankruptcy. If a man therefore files for bankruptcy, he is within his contractual rights.

I would say at this point that although usually unwise and oftentimes sinful it is permissible under certain circumstances.

Be careful not to jump to conclusions about what o...

2008-01-28T08:22:00.000-06:00

Be careful not to jump to conclusions about what others are saying. For example, I have not argued that bankruptcy is biblical only that there is a difference between the bankruptcy and illegals from a legal standpoint.

See post: January 25, 2008 11:56 AM

"Bankruptcy and illegal aliens are not equal discussions because one is a legal doctrine and the other is illegal by definition."

I will be absent most of today but will post later this evening on the subject of bankrupacy.

"I wait in anticipation upon our review by those who know?"

The scripture about "owe no man anything" is very ...

2008-01-26T17:09:00.000-06:00

The scripture about "owe no man anything" is very important.

That is one of those texts which should be taught to young people early before the try to buy things on credit.

It is the very access to and use of easy credit that gets many people into financial trouble.

Fiancial foolishness stresses many marriages. It robs people of freedom to make other choices for their money. It also robs potential for good in the kingdom by reduced giving. It can give a black eye to a persons character.

Credit is most wisely used when purchasing things that appreciate in value. Buying a couple of twenty dollar meals and not paying the balance can turn those into hundred dollar meals over time, long after they have been processed at the sewage plant.

However, job loss, medical emergencies, etc. can hurt people significantly.

Again if one is not paying back easy credit, he can more easily save for such unforseen things. He should have all of his deductibles saved; insurance premiums budgeted; hefty emergency fund to keep Murphy at bay.

Recommended reading:

Dave Ramsey's "Total Money Makeover"

"Jeff- NO, you may not rob a bank but you may sell...

2008-01-26T16:02:00.000-06:00

"Jeff- NO, you may not rob a bank but you may sell every last possesion you have and work tirelessly to repay every penny. Thats what a CHRISTIAN would do, right?!@#$%^&*(
Natahn"

I didn't say anything about not trying to repay, did I? I just said that there are times when you *can't*. If you want to argue with that, then turn to Luke 7:42 and argue with the Lord.

By the way, a CHRISTIAN shouldn't curse either - or use symbols that designate such.

IF SITUATION ALLOWS:Jeff says: Paul was wrong. O...

2008-01-26T15:05:00.000-06:00

IF SITUATION ALLOWS:

Jeff says: Paul was wrong. Owe no man anything is trumped by your overextension as long as intent was not malicious.

Sounds similiar to Dave Miller's INTENT doctrine on the MDR issue.

Jeff- NO, you may not rob a bank but you may sell every last possesion you have and work tirelessly to repay every penny. Thats what a CHRISTIAN would do, right?!@#$%^&*(
Natahn

"According to your doctrine, (Rick and a friend) t...

2008-01-26T12:12:00.000-06:00

"According to your doctrine, (Rick and a friend) the illegal would not have to go home if he sought amnesty from the government because of "certain situations"."

If he had amnesty, he wouldn't be an illegal. The reason illegals should go home is because they are breaking the law by being here, and someone here legally would not (obviously) be doing so.

"Therefore if I borrow 10,000.00 from Rick and I overextend myself with no "malicious" behavior attatched and then I file bankruptcy because I "cannot" repay thats ok?"

I like the way you put cannot in quotes. If you can't pay, you can't pay - what do you want a Christian to do, rob a bank? Like it or not, there are situations in which it is impossible to pay back that which is owed. It's wrong to overextend yourself intentionally (maliciously), but if it is done unintentionally, how can you pay a debt that is impossible to pay?

According to your doctrine, (Rick and a friend) th...

2008-01-26T09:35:00.000-06:00

According to your doctrine, (Rick and a friend) the illegal would not have to go home if he sought amnesty from the government because of "certain situations".

You all might be leaning towards situational ethics on the bankruptcy thing. I forwarded this blogsite (my first time to be on) to a brotherhood school of preaching for review. It may take a few days for their decision to come back.

Therefore if I borrow 10,000.00 from Rick and I ov...

2008-01-26T09:33:00.000-06:00

Therefore if I borrow 10,000.00 from Rick and I overextend myself with no "malicious" behavior attatched and then I file bankruptcy because I "cannot" repay thats ok?

I thought God's law was higher than mans law? I thought we had to "owe no man nothinig "?

What about the covenant or contract I entered into with Rick?

I do not agree at all. You guys are really wrong on this one.

Terry wrote:Since an illegal alien has to return h...

2008-01-25T11:56:00.001-06:00

Terry wrote:
Since an illegal alien has to return home (repentance) to become a Christian, why doesn't a person who files bankruptcy have to pay their medical bills, credit cards, etc back (repentance demand restitution).

We teach this with the MDR issue and with the illegal Mexicans who sneak over.

Bankruptcy is seldom mentioned.

Is it the same?

Why/why not?

The concept of restitution is clearly taught in the OT but only on very specific cases/issues.

Restitution dealt with loss of property by theft or destruction.

Divorce and remarriage is not loss of property. Nowhere in the scriptures (OT or NT) is restitution ever even remotely taught as a means of "correcting" unfortunate situations as these.

So far as bankruptcy is concerned; the principle is based on the OT concept of the 7 year forgiving of debts and the 50 year jubilee return of land to the original family.

Being bankrupt and filing bankruptcy are not always the same. It it not immoral in the sense of stealing if a person has unforseen and unfortunate disasters occurring in his life. Even our law recognizes this difference.

In the USA we have insurance on almost everything to protect ourselves. Business who extend credit also do so.

When a bankruptcy goes before a judge, every creditor has a right to appear and to appeal the conditions. Unless there is malicious and wilful dodging of a debt most do not dispute it.

Our laws also were developed in contrast to the abusive debtors prisons left behind in Europe when our country was founded.

It is arguably a good idea if one can pay back those debts. Unfortunately, their present cost of living prevents many from being able to do so. Ultimately those debts have been forgiven albeit by legal recourse.

Terry,Bankruptcy and illegal aliens are not equal ...

2008-01-25T11:56:00.000-06:00

Terry,
Bankruptcy and illegal aliens are not equal discussions because one is a legal doctrine and the other is illegal by definition.

Since an illegal alien has to return home (repenta...

2008-01-25T11:33:00.000-06:00

Since an illegal alien has to return home (repentance) to become a Christian, why doesn't a person who files bankruptcy have to pay their medical bills, credit cards, etc back (repentance demand restitution).

We teach this with the MDR issue and with the illegal Mexicans who sneak over.

Bankruptcy is seldom mentioned.

Is it the same?

Why/why not?

Terry Landover

Nathan,I had a Greek teacher tell me one time, "So...

2008-01-24T09:19:00.000-06:00

Nathan,
I had a Greek teacher tell me one time, "Son, you don't have to know Greek to go to heaven, but somebody had to know Greek for anyone of us to go to heaven."

By the way, you do not have to know Greek to use "Strongs" as a study tool. It is a Concordance that works on a numbering system.

Call Christian Family Bookstore (800) 782.8175 and speak with Mark or Tucker Williams.

"Dont take this wrong, but if I thought it took kn...

2008-01-23T21:53:00.000-06:00

"Dont take this wrong, but if I thought it took knowing the Greek to go to heaven Id just give up."

Nobody is saying that you have to learn Greek. All that's been said is that the Greek is helpful - how can you argue with that? I don't know Greek either, but anybody who can use a dictionary can look up the meaning of a word in Strongs or Thayer.

In reference to your comment about "just giving up" if learning a language was necessary, I would point out that people learn the basics of a language in a few months - yet a Christian's obligation to study the word lasts a lifetime. If don't take your studies in an English version as seriously as someone taking Rosetta Stone on the internet, I would suggest that you aren't being as diligent as you ought. Would you really willingly go to hell rather than learn another language? I sure wouldn't, but I'm glad it's not necessary all the same.

Paying attention to context and comparing mulitple...

2008-01-23T17:12:00.000-06:00

Paying attention to context and comparing mulitple versions will answer a lot of questions including the textual use of man... is it male only or mankind in general?

GREEK !

2008-01-23T16:22:00.001-06:00

GREEK !

Kevin-Dont take this wrong, but if I thought it to...

2008-01-23T16:22:00.000-06:00

Kevin-
Dont take this wrong, but if I thought it took knowing the Greek to go to heaven Id just give up. Thats what you all are basicaly saying. Need to understand 1 Tim 2 to go to heaven? Yes. Need to know when men is specific to understnad the text? Yes. How do I know? Gree!

Nathan

No. You don't have to know Greek, but in some case...

2008-01-23T14:50:00.000-06:00

No. You don't have to know Greek, but in some cases (not just on this subject) knowing how to use the proper tools is important, which is why Rick mentioned "tools" in his post.

Bible study takes effort. One of the reasons Christ taught in parables was to distinguish between those who were observers and those who were truly interested. When truth really matters to us, we will make the effort to learn the skills necessary to ascertain that truth.

I'm sure someone here can provide you with access to the guidance you want. ; )

So according to J Dean one has to know the Greek t...

2008-01-23T09:24:00.000-06:00

So according to J Dean one has to know the Greek to be accurate on the role of women. I am so frustrated.

Nathan
TN

Kevin, well said...I will get to some of the quest...

2008-01-23T09:14:00.000-06:00

Kevin, well said...

I will get to some of the questions later but you can make the simple distinctions in man (male) and man (mankind) by looking up the verses in Strongs, it is a great assist to any library.

One of the classes that I teach in How to Study the Bible is "Bible Tools"

Might I suggest that the issues raised her in rega...

2008-01-23T09:09:00.000-06:00

Might I suggest that the issues raised her in regard to women take in a number of questions that must be treated separately in order to pull together a proper understanding. For example, the first question relates to the extent of applying 1 Timothy 2 in life as opposed to the assembly, but some will see this as contradictory unless "usurping" is properly defined. People have already brought up these issues and pointed them out, but I'm not sure everyone understands how they affect one another.

PS... Some more modern speech versions use "one" o...

2008-01-23T07:25:00.000-06:00

PS... Some more modern speech versions use "one" or "person", etc. when the term man is generic. You can compare translations when in doubt to determine such.

man - generic of all mankindandman - male gender i...

2008-01-23T07:24:00.000-06:00

man - generic of all mankind

and

man - male gender in particular

are distinct in the original languages.

Many times one can discern this even in English by the context. If the term is contextually contrasted to or in company with the term woman, then you can be fairly sure it is the male use of man.

Baptizing a 7 yr. old is not much different than "...

2008-01-23T07:20:00.000-06:00

Baptizing a 7 yr. old is not much different than "baptizing" an infant.

Advanced intellect and/or loss of innocence do not mean that a child is truly mature enough, let alone accountable before God as a sinner, to need salvation.